[PaulS]

Is it more difficult to tune a Nitro engine - it's certainly different but the principle is the same.

Both are constant flow injection, supercharged and normally a Hemi so the basics remain, what you don't have as Rob said is a large pool of knowledge to draw from to get you started or to fine tune things as you progress. Getting a basic set up can take a while (especially as we don't run a data logger - my choice) as you have to rely on what you hear and see, plugs are harder to read on a nitro car so you have to pay more attention to what the bearings are telling you and from driver feedback.

You have to make sure that all the components are compatible with each other - it's no good having a big pump if you can't light the plugs and similarly a big magneto won't do you any favours as you can end up being over rich and washing the bores.

We took it very slowly to start with and made only small changes to the jetting as unlike a Methanol engine Nitro is not so happy running lean or rich so the tuning window is a lot narrower, in all honesty once I got "brave" enough to up the percentage of the Nitro and put more advance into the engine it got a whole lot easier to tune.

[Rob]

Andy

Jon posed a question and I offered what I considered to be an appropriate response.

I've not forgotten any of my senior school chemistry because frankly, I didn't learn much while I was there. I'm ashamed to admit that my chosen subjects were snooker and drinking. I have however, set fire to a number of magnesium components on our lathe.

You make a number of interesting points in your post but I'd question the relevance of a number of them. There's no great shock with regards to Denver. From a technical perspective it's an outlier and probably adds significant cost to anyone trying to run Comp Eliminator through to Top Fuel. The altitude demands a bespoke engine package for anyone trying to be competitive in a performance based class, nitro or otherwise.

No one is discussing NHRA 'Big Show' engines. I remember 1320 fuel racing very well. I remember tuners trying to understand the mechanical limitations of what they had and tuning as best they could, often with a mixture of science and intuition. I remember torched heads and burnt pistons but I can't remember anything particularly significant about 1,000ft. As Paul indicated and I will readily accept, nitro punishes stupidity harder than methanol but one accepts that going in and adjusts the tuning schedule and procedures accordingly.

I agree with your statement about trying to run nitro in an Indy 500 engine, it would be a bad idea.

I don't have any engine regulations for 70's and 80's Comp Bike and are thus unable to comment on the merits of your Kawasaki, I can however make a comparison. My business partner drives a friends AA/FA which will run consistent 6.30's without hurting a stitch. I feel I can safely say that if another team elected to run a "similar" set up but chose to use methanol instead of nitro they'd get their a**e handed to them on a plate.

As for methanol placing less stress on mechanical parts I'm not sure, but I would agree with your point about combustion events. From a different perspective, the competitive Pro Mod engines to which we've had access make a compelling argument to look elsewhere for potential failures. A typical reciprocating weight for a PM rod and piston assembly is in the region of 1,450 grams. The stroke is about 4.15", the rod is roughly 7.35" long and the engines are in the region of 9,800 rpm at the finish line. If you can ignore the friction and residual cylinder pressure elements for a moment, do a 'quick and dirty' stress calculation on the rod bolts, it's not pretty.

Don't let the thread turn into a science lesson. The question is, if they have the desire to do so, "is it possible for a novice team to run a nitro burning Nostalgia Funny Car that's built to the regulations posted on the SPR website ?"

In my opinion, with some sensible research, yes.

Have a good day

Rob

[Bennett Racing_511]

Great thread and enjoying the read.

One question - and I will ask this as nicely as I can.....what stops a team going nitro with no knowledge at all and hurting someone? This is purely a general question and not to impact or effect any of the funny car teams.

The question of nitro vs alky tuning...not as easy as yes or no, as we all know there are MANY levels of motor and spec.

My Bantam motor is a 511 cu in alky burner with a supermag and an 8/71. will only turn to 7,500 max and is very simple and basic in terms of todays technology with timers and 2 steps, but it will be easy to tune and 'safe' to a point. You can still hurt an alky motor, you can still do big damage, revs hurt parts that's a given but so do stupid people and bad parts.

As Rob says a pro mod motor which to a degree our topo engine is (albeit its a Chevy) But this has a 44 amp mag, a trick 14/71 blower, it is harder to tune than my Bantam motor, the tuning window is smaller without doubt, mistakes are more likely. But we still have big aims with this motor, we're not quite finished with this Chevy thing just yet, we want to become the quickest Chevy powered motor in Europe, on alky. For the challenge of it. We are changing things within the motor and trying things to gain more speed and hp. if we don't try then we don't no. We run no data logger, we do it by sight and sound as Paul mentioned, but i would run one if we had the £££.

Yes we'd run nitro in a heartbeat. But we don't have the £ to even buy the fuel. I love to learn though.

[dorrisdormouse]

Thank you guys for your explanations. Really enjoyed reading this thread, the technical / science behind motor tech really amazes me and if i had a choice id really like to study and gain a better knowledge of it, and engineering in general. Unfortunately I chose the path of computer science rather than motorsport engineering, something that from time to time i regret. Like I said I was really just relaying what was said to me. I just fear that the cost of running in the class will mean that it either never comes into being or that it would be short lived, which would be a crying shame. From my understanding there are currently only 2 nitro nfc's around that could run the class, plus Andy's car which is in construction, and Rob Elsom too. Doc Stinger's car is a methanol car, as is Ramon's, and I believe that the Draper car isnt suitable either, nor would Andy Raw's nostalgia beetle funny car either. It's a shame that half of the potential field is ruled out. I guess there is Tre Kronor too if it has a new owner. I guess most of the NFAA car's would need to make quite a few changes to go NFC?

[Bennett Racing_511]

I guess most of the NFAA car's would need to make quite a few changes to go NFC?

For us mate a new motor. Would be uneconomical to change parts. Too much to change.

Out of general interest - do the alky guys just turn up with any combo at the moment then???

[Rob]

I don't think there's anything to stop it happening Luke, I think that's how it's been since the Play Pen went. As far as I'm aware there's nothing in place to stop a group of donuts buying an A/Fuel Dragster then spending a weekend trying to start it. As far as the Alky spec, I think if you're running with the NFAA against the Funny Cars you run your normal regs.

Lighten up Dorris, no ones dying here. There's a few people that are going to run Nostalgia Nitro Funny Cars for a couple of years, if it's got legs it'll run, Drag Racing will carry on regardless.

[PaulS]

what stops a team going nitro with no knowledge at all and hurting someone?

I would hope that it's the same thing that stops people from building a Petrol or Alky powered vehicle and hurting people - common sense, although I guess if being dumb was illegal most of the general population would be behind bars .

Seriously though that is the reason behind the rules, the limiting factors are Fuel, Blower and Ignition all of which are in the rules and kind of give a hint at what is a good combination, put a 14/71 with 30% overdrive on a motor on Nitro with a 15GPM pump and you probably will be the scrap man's best friend. As I said before the hardest thing is to get a (safe) baseline from which you can start to tune. There are plenty of teams in the States you could approach (although they are a little cagey about spreading specific tune up info) or even ask the few people in Europe that run Nitro to help you.

It's a shame that half of the potential field is ruled out.

With regards to precluding existing cars, no heads up class can survive if the rules are built around what cars already exist hence the two year period before the rules come into effect to allow people to choose which route to go. Both ourselves and Ramon built our cars because it was what we wanted and not to fit into either an existing or proposed class, I guess we were lucky that I built it in line with the Heritage rules, Andy Raw's car (as far as I know) was built for and normally runs bracket. It was as much of a surprise to me as to a lot of people when the Drapers pitched up with the Corvette body on as the last time I saw their' car it was an altered. Doc's car has been built as a Nitro car and were it not for circumstances he would be on Nitro this year, as it is he is planning to run this season on Alky and switch to Nitro for 2015.There are two Nitro cars in Sweden (both as far as I know conforming to the rules) one as mentioned is the Johnny Nielson's "Tre Kronor" Arrow and the other is Eric Wallenders "Rimfrost" Corvette.

A much earlier comment suggested a Supercharged Outlaw type format to allow the cars to run, as far as I know this is a dial in class and yes there are still some people that want a centre steer heads up racing class and as Rob pointed out, Nitro has been banned from bracket classes for years.

[Bennett Racing_511]

I don't think there's anything to stop it happening Luke, I think that's how it's been since the Play Pen went. As far as I'm aware there's nothing in place to stop a group of donuts buying an A/Fuel Dragster then spending a weekend trying to start it.

I find that quite worrying...for the sport I mean, picture a Main Event filled pits and some tits with an A/fuel deal...run Forrest run...there should be some 'licensing' for operating a car too in my eyes. Rather than just on track.

As far as the Alky spec, I think if you're running with the NFAA against the Funny Cars you run your normal regs.

Sweet. Can't wait, should make for some bloody good racing.

[Bennett Racing_511]

what stops a team going nitro with no knowledge at all and hurting someone?

I would hope that it's the same thing that stops people from building a Petrol or Alky powered vehicle and hurting people - common sense, although I guess if being dumb was illegal most of the general population would be behind bars .

Seriously though that is the reason behind the rules, the limiting factors are Fuel, Blower and Ignition all of which are in the rules and kind of give a hint at what is a good combination, put a 14/71 with 30% overdrive on a motor on Nitro with a 15GPM pump and you probably will be the scrap man's best friend. As I said before the hardest thing is to get a (safe) baseline from which you can start to tune. There are plenty of teams in the States you could approach (although they are a little cagey about spreading specific tune up info) or even ask the few people in Europe that run Nitro to help you.

That's the thing a nice safe baseline. One day we'd like to have ago, just funds, as always. As said we want to get what we can from the Chevy combo yet, once thats exhausted who knows.

A much earlier comment suggested a Supercharged Outlaw type format to allow the cars to run, as far as I know this is a dial in class and yes there are still some people that want a centre steer heads up racing class and as Rob pointed out, Nitro has been banned from bracket classes for years.

Not dial in for Supercharged Outlaws, heads up and the three quickest runs added up. Then lowest two totals in final which is heads up.

Actually unless I am well off same as NFAA?

[dorrisdormouse]

Sorry Rob, I didnt mean to come across real harsh. Im just excited by the possibility of us having a nostalgia funny car class over here to watch, and just really want to see it thrive - same as you im sure. Im just kinda obsessional about drag racing and moreover nostalgia drags.